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Talk:Howard MacNutt

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another source[edit]

Needs to be integrated into the article - http://bahaiteachings.org/bahai-letter-black-man-revealed-dignity-justice How a Baha’i Letter to a Black Man Revealed Dignity and Justice Christopher Buck•Sep 20, 2018 (and others of the series) --Smkolins (talk) 10:41, 20 September 2018 (PDT)

Father?[edit]

Removed citations to father Ira MacNutt's education; those newspaper articles refer to a different person with the same name (likely a relative). Territorygal (talk) 23:23, 22 August 2019 (PDT)

Hi and welcome. Can you provide the evidence behind "have determined this was a different (younger) person"? I agree it could be another person but i think mere age is insufficient to disqualify the father from going back to school. Perhaps his education had been interrupted by the war and he wanted to finish. Smkolins (talk) 03:01, 23 August 2019 (PDT)
Sure, plenty of evidence:
  1. Ira MacNutt is consistently stated to be born between 1825 and 1828 in census records; this would put him in his mid-40s by 1865. His trade as a Carpenter is also consistent throughout census and city directory records. Someone working in a trade like that likely wouldn't have even bothered with high school in that era (unless he was upper class) and afterwards certainly wouldn't continue making cabinets :).
  2. 1860 census shows Ira MacNutt already married to his wife and father of 3 children (including 11-month-old Howard). Highly unlikely a 40-something father of three is back in high school, in 1865.
  3. The "Ira MacNutt" referred to in the article is almost certainly Colonel Ira MacNutt (1850-1930), son of Philadelphia banker Asaiah MacNutt. His military records show that he went off to the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in Jul 1866, attained rank of 2nd Lieutenant, then Captain, then Colonel. I suspect the two MacNutt families are related in some way, but have not yet figured out how. - Territorygal (talk) 07:16, 23 August 2019 (PDT)
That third is convincing to me - the earlier ones I had considered sitll possible because there was a pension system as well as the unique qualities of the high school in that they can and do grant "college" degrees and exactly fiting the kind of lifestyle Howard evinced later with such things as the soccer career and etc being an upper class type reality. But I take your finding of another better fiting the age and details of service better vs him being a carpenter. Nice work! Smkolins (talk) 07:34, 23 August 2019 (PDT)

Census records[edit]

Howard MacNutt appears, age 11 months, in the 1860 U.S. Census (surname is mistranscribed as "Maxwell"). Note that sister Lulu is enumerated in the household next door.
His father Ira MacNutt in the 1850 U.S. Census. He is presumed to have married Caroline Baker sometime between 1850 and 1853.

Cool - by all means could be added, go ahead.I'd also say this narrows down the prospect of him born in 1858 and strongly favors 1859 to the point of just saying so in the article because it was taken in June 1860 and he is said to be 11 months old. Smkolins (talk) 03:13, 23 August 2019 (PDT)
It looks like 1858 was the birth year he used during his life (e.g. on passport applications), but it was probably "really" 1859 as you say. - Territorygal (talk) 07:54, 23 August 2019 (PDT)
Forgot to mention that both of Howard's parents are on that 1850 census page - 16-yr-old Caroline Baker is living with her family next door to Ira's residence! - Territorygal (talk) 07:54, 23 August 2019 (PDT)
Completely worth adding to the article in a line or so…. Smkolins (talk) 11:54, 23 August 2019 (PDT)
Added 1850 and 1860 census information. I put that "little is known about his parents' origins" - still researching! - Territorygal (talk) 22:43, 25 August 2019 (PDT)
Excellent work and I hope for more! Smkolins (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2019 (PDT)

Final resting place of Howard and Mary MacNutt[edit]

In researching the MacNutt family, I came across an official-looking burial record for Cedar Hill Cemetery Section G, Lot no. 73. It appears to have been posted online by a descendant of one of Howard MacNutt's sisters. The people listed in that plot are:

  1. Winfield MacNutt, age 8, buried 6/29/70
  2. Clara E. MacNutt, age ?, buried 6/29/70
  3. Mary L. MacNutt, age 31, consumption, buried 11/22/89
  4. Ira MacNutt, age 65, Neuralgic heart, buried 8/15/93
  5. Caroline MacNutt, age 78, buried 12/11/12
  6. Edward Foster, age 65, Heart disease, buried 10/4/17
  7. Emma Foster, age 78, Cer. Hem., buried 2/17/37

No sign of Howard or Mary. - Territorygal (talk) 07:30, 23 August 2019 (PDT)

It is a mystery! Smkolins (talk) 07:35, 23 August 2019 (PDT)

Was just reading this article here which claims they were to be buried at Green Acre. Has this been disproven? - Territorygal (talk) 22:53, 31 August 2019 (PDT)

through corresponding with people familiar with graves there and the area, there is no sign either were buried there, nor is there evidence the bodies left Pennsylvania.Smkolins (talk) 03:30, 1 September 2019 (PDT)

"Beginning re-working of article"?[edit]

Hi - @Jagar, can you give me a sense of what you mean? You have a problem with the article so drastic it has to be "rework"ed? Smkolins (talk) 04:09, 7 October 2019 (PDT)

Hey Smkolins, re-working might be too dramatic a term. I mainly want to make the main body of the article flow a little more like the introductory biographical segment (now under heading 'background'). I don't want to change the content or information contained in the article at all, just stylistic things like reducing the referencing of the source of information within the article text to only when it is absolutely necessary, and rearranging more tangentially related information into dedicated segments, for example 'family' for information on MacNutt's sister/in-laws at the end of the article (perhaps into 'spin-off' articles if enough related information can be found). I will try to make sure edits are in big 'batches' rather than a bunch of small edits so it easy to see what is changed so if you have a different perspective it will be easy to collaborate. Jagar (talk) 08:24, 7 October 2019 (PDT)
What is the value of removing the history (what I think you mean by tangential) of a person from the significance of a person? I see them as intimately related and show change and growth which is the significance, not just the resulting position? Smkolins (talk) 08:27, 7 October 2019 (PDT)
The aim is to rearrange rather than to remove, but by tangential I mean things which are not directly related to Howard MacNutt, for example the background information on the Faith in Miami, such as the KKK's activity and other early visitors. My personal view would be that this is directly related to Miami, but only tangentially related to MacNutt (via MacNutt's direct relation to Miami), and could be reduced to a few lines, with the full text being incorporated into an article on Miami which would then be linked from this article. To use a metaphor, a book on a topic should ideally exhaust all relevant information on a topic, be it directly or tangentially related, but in the context of bahaipedia bahaipedia as a whole would be the book, rather than the individual article for the sake of brevity. However I do not want to impose my personal view!, perhaps it would be better to consult to collaboratively establish a style guide for biographical articles, rather than for me to just re-work the article on MacNutt.

Jagar (talk) 09:19, 7 October 2019 (PDT)

Well in some sense we are writing the book here though I wouldn't mind more input either. I can see what you are saying... when there is such an article on Miami. But that's a tall work to aim for - they've only recently had their first seminar of sorts and are still gathering material. Perhaps as that and such an article evolves then MacNutt's would fall into place amidst that history. That I can see. But we're just getting started on things. Smkolins (talk) 09:36, 7 October 2019 (PDT)


Dead link[edit]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: [1]. --BahaiBot (talk) 02:06, 18 November 2023 (PST)


Dead link 2[edit]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: [2]. --BahaiBot (talk) 02:06, 18 November 2023 (PST)


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